Let’s dive into initiative, specifically focusing on the systems used in Shadow of the Demon Lord and Shadow of the Weird Wizard. Why these games? Because the first introduced a cool, innovative system that the designer later changed in the second edition. But why?
I actually tend to like even older systems, roll initiative per turn. It is very much (To me more) skill based combat and also less random than you would think. Since our group plays via VTT, it is not even a hassle for me as a GM.
It also creates interesting narrative during combat: "Rog the ranger rolled 18 with his +1 dex and started the combat off with a deliberate and accurate bow attack, surprising and killing one of them, forcing the goblins into a corner, supressing them. Round 2, the goblins realize what is happening, they rolled 17 on this round and Rog rolled 14, the goblins scatter in all directions in order to surround him.
It creates this push pull during a fight, and tactics have to be adjusted all the time. It makes resource management for spellcasters even more important (Plus melee characters actually having to cover their casters), since the chance of not being able to react on time is a real fear. Especially if you imagine AD&D1e where casting could take multiple segments to work out. Character placement of the battlefield actually becomes necessary, and is no longer a given like say the ranger that stays on top of the rocks and has a continuing advantage while raining hell down.
Some systems do it gracefully like you point out, and I agree that 5e's initiative system is too bland and gamified like a video game. It doesn't make sense why a high init roll will keep you fast the whole duration of the combat. Combat is chaotic the very least, and panic is a real factor.
I agree with the random initiative order per round if you have the VTT. Dragonbane does a card based initiative system where they deal out cards each round. I found that to be quick even if it was not a VTT, so it can be done.
For a game where the tactics REALLY matter I think i do like the random order turns. But sometimes I also like the "super team" turns, where its side-based, because I feel that for more casual players they can get their heads around cool solutions that they can work together on.
Indeed, both ways have their charm. I never played Dragonbane and didn't know they had a card system. I might nick that idea for my homebrew. Seems like a cool interactive way for the players too, just to shuffle the deck and deal the cards every round.
Quite recently i decided that 5e D&D is just not for me, I started with AD&D2e and 3.0 when it came out. Things were a lot more wargamey back then, but I tend to like more complex gameplay and don't mind turns that take 45 minutes. I even picked up a couple of OSRIC copies to dive back into 1e. Yeah I am a grognard, but proudly so.
That being said, if I want a system that is more narrative driven, I think the card solution might even work better. I could make some really cool types of different initiative cards that could help or hinder the group too. Perhaps like a thing that fall in favour of whoever got the good init card with a bonus on it.
I prefer the long tactical crunch. Comes from playing miniature wargames like World In Flames or computer wargames like Gary Grigby's where a turn could take a week or even longer. I am very patient, and never felt a rush.
That being said, I totally love it when my players are getting into roleplaying on the table. I have one player in my group who's character has a sort of weird mental state, partially because of him being a warlock tainted by a demon, partially because he rolled low intelligence score lol. He has to roll a 1d12 every 3 turns (30 minutes) where he has to do something compulsive. I made a roll table in Foundry to make it easier, and I can change and swap results as the campaign progresses. Last time he had to eat bat guano because reasons... and some other time he was so obsessed with the mushrooms in the Underdark, that he had to take a little sentient mushroom as a pet.
He didn't even came up with it completely out of the blue, it was purely because of the diceroll and the result he had to come up with on the spot. I like to create roleplay moment's like that where it is part random, part inspired by the players own creativity without even having to develop a backstory on paper.
I actually tend to like even older systems, roll initiative per turn. It is very much (To me more) skill based combat and also less random than you would think. Since our group plays via VTT, it is not even a hassle for me as a GM.
It also creates interesting narrative during combat: "Rog the ranger rolled 18 with his +1 dex and started the combat off with a deliberate and accurate bow attack, surprising and killing one of them, forcing the goblins into a corner, supressing them. Round 2, the goblins realize what is happening, they rolled 17 on this round and Rog rolled 14, the goblins scatter in all directions in order to surround him.
It creates this push pull during a fight, and tactics have to be adjusted all the time. It makes resource management for spellcasters even more important (Plus melee characters actually having to cover their casters), since the chance of not being able to react on time is a real fear. Especially if you imagine AD&D1e where casting could take multiple segments to work out. Character placement of the battlefield actually becomes necessary, and is no longer a given like say the ranger that stays on top of the rocks and has a continuing advantage while raining hell down.
Some systems do it gracefully like you point out, and I agree that 5e's initiative system is too bland and gamified like a video game. It doesn't make sense why a high init roll will keep you fast the whole duration of the combat. Combat is chaotic the very least, and panic is a real factor.
Just my two cents on the topic :)
I agree with the random initiative order per round if you have the VTT. Dragonbane does a card based initiative system where they deal out cards each round. I found that to be quick even if it was not a VTT, so it can be done.
For a game where the tactics REALLY matter I think i do like the random order turns. But sometimes I also like the "super team" turns, where its side-based, because I feel that for more casual players they can get their heads around cool solutions that they can work together on.
Indeed, both ways have their charm. I never played Dragonbane and didn't know they had a card system. I might nick that idea for my homebrew. Seems like a cool interactive way for the players too, just to shuffle the deck and deal the cards every round.
Quite recently i decided that 5e D&D is just not for me, I started with AD&D2e and 3.0 when it came out. Things were a lot more wargamey back then, but I tend to like more complex gameplay and don't mind turns that take 45 minutes. I even picked up a couple of OSRIC copies to dive back into 1e. Yeah I am a grognard, but proudly so.
That being said, if I want a system that is more narrative driven, I think the card solution might even work better. I could make some really cool types of different initiative cards that could help or hinder the group too. Perhaps like a thing that fall in favour of whoever got the good init card with a bonus on it.
ahhh brainstorm time...
Cool! Yeah, Savage Worlds also used a card initiative system. So you might check that out as well!
So, are you more into long crunchy tactical? Or more narrative push now? You like longer turns but which way are you leaning now?
I prefer the long tactical crunch. Comes from playing miniature wargames like World In Flames or computer wargames like Gary Grigby's where a turn could take a week or even longer. I am very patient, and never felt a rush.
That being said, I totally love it when my players are getting into roleplaying on the table. I have one player in my group who's character has a sort of weird mental state, partially because of him being a warlock tainted by a demon, partially because he rolled low intelligence score lol. He has to roll a 1d12 every 3 turns (30 minutes) where he has to do something compulsive. I made a roll table in Foundry to make it easier, and I can change and swap results as the campaign progresses. Last time he had to eat bat guano because reasons... and some other time he was so obsessed with the mushrooms in the Underdark, that he had to take a little sentient mushroom as a pet.
He didn't even came up with it completely out of the blue, it was purely because of the diceroll and the result he had to come up with on the spot. I like to create roleplay moment's like that where it is part random, part inspired by the players own creativity without even having to develop a backstory on paper.
I much prefer
Declare your action
Roll Initiative
The only time modifiers (Dex) are applied is for tie breakers.